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Thread: a polite discussion

  1. #11
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    Re: a polite discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by polite
    I canīt disclose everything,i think Iīve already clarified many important points.
    OK I appreciate that you cannot tell us everything as it is sensitive, but it then makes me think that there could be more to this and that there is the risk that legally the system could fail as there is no legal evidence / documentation / precendent available that allows such a system.
    Quote Originally Posted by polite
    But this is not the point:the BBC would NEVER give permission,even if you provided them with a full documentation. And this is for particular reasons that donīt concern the legality of rebroadcasting.
    But they do - in Holland and Switzerland there are cable companies that pay a lot of money to access certain UK channels on their system.
    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/show ... stcount=48
    Quote Originally Posted by polite
    Among others,here is an example:GSM networks for mobile telephony nowadays have reached a high level of coverage,but there are still some "holes",that is areas where the signal level is very low and ordinary mobile phones would not work.
    In this case there is an EU law that lets these communities build their own repeater systems to get a correct signal level enabling their mobile phones to work properly,without asking for any permission from the operators(who,obviously,would never grant it).
    And in many countires there are provisions for local authorites to establish local repeater systems for terrestrial TV broadcasts for the local area - but not on an international pan european scale without permission!

    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/03/ ... smissions/

    http://managingip.com/Article/2115166/C ... ement.html
    While the Rome Convention gives broadcasting organisations the right to authorise or prohibit the rebroadcasting of its programmes, this protection does not extend to cable retransmission.
    - interesting

    Had this in an email - but could not find a reference document for it
    Copyright in the broadcast is not infringed if and to the extent that the broadcast—
    (i) Is made for reception in the area in which the cable programme service is provided; and
    (ii) Is not a satellite transmission or an encrypted transmission:
    Quote Originally Posted by polite
    Let me add that not only Intelsat are satisfied with the legality of this system,but also the encryption company we use,Irdeto (the contract with them is more expensive than most people think).They also are fully aware of the content we broadcast,as they would not sign a contract without knowing what is broadcast.
    I still find it hard to belive that a satellite operator with close links to the UK broadcasters (via freeview distribution) would allow the transmission of channels on their satellite when the uplinker system does not have the correct copyright permissions. So Intelsat are breaking international copyright law - by transmitting material without consent of the copyright holder. If they are doing so willingly then surely the channel owners and operators can take action in court to stop this via the "accessory in copyright infringment" charge in the same way that many websites have been actioned against.

    I am sure most European countries are signaturies of the Rome Convention which is about protecting the rights of performers and broadcasts, and deals with copyright ownership. And I am sure the TVwF (or whatever it is called these days) also allows for the requirement of permissions to be sought for all broadcasters and platform operators within the EU.

    http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/rome ... _rome.html

    The BBC would lose income from the BBC Prime / BBC Worldwide channel and deals for distribution of programmes around Europe, especially when BBC Worldwide end up owning most of the European copyright / contracts for many BBC programmes. So you would also be breaking their rights and copyright entitlements in the countries that is covered by this system.

    If you are unable to transmit encrypted material as you do not have the correct copyright permissions, why is it ok to do so for free to air material - is there documentation available that makes this distinction?

    Although I am not a lawyer or copyright specialist, all the documentation and interpretation I have seen suggests the system (and other rebroadcasters) is in breach of copyright infringement. Until some form of documentation / evidence is made available that says that it is OK to transmitting free to air material without consent of the copyright holder, then I am afraid my sceptism about this system and other rebroadcasters will remain.
    The Sat and PC Guy
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  2. #12
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    Re: a polite discussion

    Maybe best thing to do is to forward these views to BBc ITV and Sky legal dept and see if they can shed any light on the legal side of the rebroadcasting side. Then if they say its OK were all happy.

  3. #13
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    Re: a polite discussion

    Mr. satandpcguy you certainly have enough experience to know Spanish rebroadcasters have been operating for more than 10 years and are still around with the free to air channels.
    The only one closed down was for tax evasion and subscription channels rebroadcasting.
    Our agent shop in Torrevieja ALWAYS adds IVA to the price of cards and receivers sold to customers,and this can be shown to any tax inspector from the Government.

    Channels have a simple way to avoid rebroadcasting:encryption.
    The content providers can demand encryption to be used when making deals with broadcasters.This happens,for example,when the Premier League sells rights for the football:satellite channels must use encryption when showing matches,otherwise they will not sell them the rights.
    If programme makers get agreements with free to air channels,then they must accept the possibility of signal overspill.
    Dish size on itself can not be a discriminant as an encryption,what would you say:60,80cm are ok,but 1m is too much?
    So,just because a free to air channel has bought UK only rights,you are not legally entitled to watch it on a big dish in Spain?
    In other words,our system lets people watch the same channels that you can receive free to air on a big dish.

    Sometimes prejudice can influence the possibility of impartial analysis,so just try to answer this question:why are two established and reputable companies in the satellite market such as Intelsat and Irdeto completely satisfied of the legality of this system?

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    Re: a polite discussion

    Polite,
    Nobody is arguing about their dish recieving UK tv in Spain, or anywhere else.If your dish is big enough, no problem.


    The problem is someone recieving this channel AND THEN illegally rebroadcasting that channel to all and sundry for a LARGE fee.
    How much of your subscription charge do you send to the coffers of BBC,ITV,Channel 4, Channel 5, etc., etc.

    I bet I know exactly how much, to the nearest euro, don't you ?

  5. #15
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    Re: a polite discussion

    Polite, thats for the answer, most of it I am find happy and understand and agree with.
    Quote Originally Posted by polite
    so just try to answer this question:why are two established and reputable companies in the satellite market such as Intelsat and Irdeto completely satisfied of the legality of this system?
    but this is what I am trying to do....!!!
    All evidence regarding copyright and permissions suggest that they cannot do what is being done WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE CHANNELS AND COPYRIGHT HOLDERS

    Yes I know you dont actually have permission from the actual channels.

    But what I am trying to assertain is proof / documentation that it is OK to rebroadcast FTA channels or why rebroadcasting of FTA channel is exempt from these copyright laws and regulations, and therefore that would satisfy why Intelsat and Irdeto would be happy to carry these channels without the expressed permission from the actual channels themselves.

    Would you also be able to rebroadcast Spanish FTA channels on a spanish rebroadcast system without permissions - or would the Spanish broadcasters want permission / contracts?

    An answer of "its been going on for years" does not mean that it is legal.

    I know it has been going on in Spain for a number of years, but where is the documentation that says they can do this, as all the documentation available that I can find says you cannot rebroadcast ANY material without permission. So if people are being allowed to do it there must be documentation available to say so that excludes them from the copyright laws.

    For example, the motorway speed limit in the UK is 70mph. You are breaking the law if you exceed that. But if you want to legally go over that limit, you must apply for exemption from the relevant laws.

    And yes I realise that there is a big difference in reception direct from the satellite and rebroadcasting signals on your own network.And yes I get the fact that all you are doing is letting people watch the same channels that you can receive free to air on a big dish, but my questions are al about the legality of rebroadcasting FTA channels!

    And maybe that documentation may hold a clue as to why some cable and rebroadcasting networks (like Moraira Digital) can still rebroadcasting Sky Pay TV channels.

    Like I said before
    Although I am not a lawyer or copyright specialist, all the documentation and interpretation I have seen suggests the system (and other rebroadcasters) is in breach of copyright infringement. Until some form of documentation / evidence is made available that says that it is OK to transmitting free to air material without consent of the copyright holder, then I am afraid my sceptism about this system and other rebroadcasters will remain.
    The Sat and PC Guy
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    Re: a polite discussion

    This will only go round and round in big circles: I have tried for many years to tell people that it is against the law to live here and drive round in British Reg cars but they dont want to hear. Until they get pulled by the Gurdia civil then its Spain`s fault!! Lets hope that the law can get its act together and close these companies that pray on the brits that come to Spain and need to watch Corrie or they will go back to the uk as they could not possibly live without it.
    The only hope that the likes of MDC etc that continue to pray on these people get whats coming to them. [MOD EDIT - SENTANCE REMOVED - NO PERSONAL ATTACKS]. I can only look forward to the day when i can say to all their subscribers I TOLD YOU SO: The likes of myself and the sat and pc guy that give honest and truthful veiws even if it means loosing the odd customer will iam sure get their day. I for one will be having a quiet snigger when they all come running......................

  7. #17
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    Re: a polite discussion

    Iīm here to discuss only the position of our system,if there are rebroadcasters still showing subscription channels thatīs their problem.As I said,we only show free to air channels and constantly monitor the situation,in the event a channel should go into encryption,on a free to view or pay tv basis,we would immediately remove it from the system,as part of our agreement with Intelsat.

    Satandpcguy the single document you search for unfortunately is not available,itīs about the sum of multiple aspects that our legal department analysed with the satellite operator.
    It has to be noticed that also people receiving bbc programs in Spain on a big dish are not paying any contribution(the licence fee),but itīs still legal because itīs a free to air channel.
    So the issue of contribution to the bbc is not relevant in this case.

    All the main Spanish channels on satellite are encrypted,so it would not be possible to do a similar system for them.

  8. #18
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    Re: a polite discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by polite
    Satandpcguy the single document you search for unfortunately is not available,itīs about the sum of multiple aspects that our legal department analysed with the satellite operator.
    So from that answer I would take that to mean that there is no legal aspect that allows the rebroadcasting of channels without permission and / or allows you to be exempt from the international copyright laws.

    I know lawyers are clever in manipulating the law for their advantage - thats their job - but there must be something in law / document / legal precedent that has pointed them to the "loophole" that allows the the system to rebroadcast channels without permission and / or allows you to be exempt from the international copyright laws.
    The Sat and PC Guy
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    Re: a polite discussion

    I have read through some of the forums linked to in the News section.
    Some posters claim that our system is being offered through cardsharing networks.
    Thatīs strange,because encryption provider Irdeto told us their recent batch of cards is not shareable over the internet.
    And in fact our research shows that no cardsharing server is able to offer our system.
    If you know different you could,even on PM,point us to the direction where this is happening.

  10. #20
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    Re: a polite discussion

    Somehow, even if i did know I dont think I would.
    How would you stop them anyway - you cannot go down the infringment of copyright route can you?
    Or theft of intellectual property?
    And all they are doing is making available channels that are available for free on satellite anyway...as per what you say your system is doing....

    "The pirates are being scared of being pirated"

    And many encryption companies said their systems dont work on card sharing networks, but they have been proven wrong...as we may see when Sky UK switch to NDS3 in October....

    http://www.cardserver.org/cardsharing/f ... per-30902/
    has a list of irdeto clients for september 2009 (can not see BTN on there!), and I am certian many of them are available on CS networks, althought yes, maybe not all of them have migrated to Irdeto3 yet.

    According to this
    http://www.lyngsat.com/intel905.html
    and other satellite sources you are using Irdeto 2, which is available on CS networks - is this correct - are you on I2 or I3?
    Does your system offer OTA updates, to migrate the software from I2 to I3? Or will clients be charged for this upgrade?

    However, I do not (normally!) condone cardsharing, and will not allow discussions on the topic on this site.
    The Sat and PC Guy
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